Editing Talk:Giant and Titan

== Discussion ==
Giants are very unimpressive 7th level creatures, and may not be worth the gold until your Cloud Temple sees an upgrade. Titans, on the other hand, stand strong as one of the most powerful creatures in the game. If your hero happens to be an expert in [[earth magic]] with [[slow]] you will be able to dismantle a majority of neutral creatures (with the help of [[mages]])) before they can land a blow. Additionally - with their mind spell immunity, Titans will not fall prey to the [[forgetfulness]] and [[berserk]] spell. Even in melee combat, your titans should lead you to victory in a wide range of combat match-ups. Also, a hero with [[Archery]] as a skill would be good too.

- Titans seem to be the only town-aligned unit able to consistently beat Ancient Behemoths without tricks like force field shenanigans or lucky Poison procs. Archangels struggle with Behemoths as despite their awesome 30/30 att/def they only have relatively low 250 HP and Behemoths deal more damage thanks to their defense reduction special, thus outdamaging Archangels in the long run. Black Dragons have equal 300 HP but much lower damage output so Behemoths mince them too. Haspids seem to get better with time and numbers, as Revenge and Poison start kicking in, but get stomped otherwise. Other level 7 units are just too fragile/weak/both. Titans on the other hand have both massive 300 HP that seems to be the best defense, insanely high damage potential especially with Archery, Bless or Slayer, and ranged attack i.e. 1-2 free hits that vs Behemoths seems better than no retaliation, as it doesn't immediately leave your unit in melee range.

Why didn't you put it in the Tactics and Strats section?--[[User:FirePaladin2|FirePaladin2]] ([[User talk:FirePaladin2|talk]]) 00:01, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

- Seems to be very niche stuff, not of much use as generally Tower armies own Stronghold armies anyway, also requires some more testing, preferably by lot of other people, to make sure it's not just my Tower bias.
I did some tests using "clean lab" environment - heroes with 0/0 att/def/skills influencing damage, artifacts nullifying luck/morale, neutral terrain, straightforward tactics (you know how kiting with ranged troop vs melee troop would end), no spells, just creature stacks with equal numbers from 1 to 1000. Long story short, Titans always win, and the bigger the numbers, the quicker it happens. Behemoths take over 40% losses just getting in melee as they eat 2 ranged volleys, both at full strength because they have to move at least 4 hexes in turn 1 to be able to reach melee in turn 2 and Titans can outwait them. Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight...
The only condition I've found in which Behemoths can win is when they start in melee from equal numbers. So not going to happen outside "lab" conditions, unless playing against really stupid AI, a noob, stacking Speed, or getting 11+ speed troops and having Teleport. In any "real" combat Behemoths would get hero backing, likely things like +10 attack, Armorer+Offense, or Crag, but Titans could have Neela, Armorer+Offense, Archery, magic buffs, Orrin, or anything that gets them more free hits or even more damage. Even after first 1-2 melee turns casting Shield or Bless on Titans still allows them to come on top.
What I'm sure does belong in Tacs/Strats is that both Giants & Titans are strongly affected by Bless/Curse, putting it in.

--It could be considered niche, but nobody reads this section either I think + that section was created to contain any useful info in those regards (even if it's Tower VS Stronghold; after all, someone might be looking for that info, and some people might read it and remember the info later, in a match where it'd be useful + one can add a subsection about Titan VS unit tests). And yeah, I love such tests, did one a while ago with all level 7s and Titans proved to be very good for a few reasons.--[[User:FirePaladin2|FirePaladin2]] ([[User talk:FirePaladin2|talk]]) 15:37, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

So someone DOES read this. Why hello my fellow H3 nerd! I think that maybe "tables of 2462894 cases of X vs Y" could be hidden in collapsing frames? It's not like people get redirected to this site asking Google for this or that exact math case: "Creature A with buff B fighting creature C, in conditions so and so who would win?". Behemoths attack table and Fire Shield damage table are two that I know of that really don't need to be always visible.

Speaking about tests, did some more, and found that Titans need at least 1 ranged hit to win vs Ancient Behemoths. At equal stacks, neutral conditions as above etc. Titans kill about 10% of ABs stacks in half strength hit and about 20% in full strength hit. Then ABs get 1 or 2 good hits, but they don't have numbers anymore and Titans reliably deal more damage (the irony!). If Titans don't get that free hit, Behemoths reliably come on top regardless of who gets the first melee strike. Otherwise it's always victory for Titan(s). Even Defend tactics doesn't help because ABs  defense is only 19 to begin with, Titans' melee attacks are almost as strong as ABs', and Titans are ranged AND faster so could just kite ABs to death instead of letting them come in melee range and attacking them after Defend.

If possible I'd like to know how Haspids turn out vs Ancient Behemoths and Titans. I get that they're considered broken for reasons, but it's no substitute for combat tests and I don't have HotA. Judging by stats alone Haspids vs ABs looks like first strike = win because both units hit hard and have weak defense, unless Revenge buffs them even more than ABs special or Poison kicks in during that crucial 1st-2nd turn.
And it might interest you that only SoD 7th levels that can reliably kill Titans in "duel" conditions are... Arch Devils, because no retal+high att/def+they cannot be kited. Everything else loses, either straight-out or with defend-counterattack tactics.

-People do get redirected by googling creatures from HoMM3 here I think. Yes, a table could be designed for such stuff (alas, regarding H3, I have modding stuff to finish, so not sure how much I'd be able to help with the table, but already existing ones can be used as starting point).
As far as I remember, the Haspids ''are'' OP in 1 on 1 combat. They killed all level 7s I think, but I need to test again to be sure. And yeah, Arch Devils are the only ones who can reliably kill Titans, that's what their strengths are, their abilities, stats and speed (also, I gotta mention HotA is free and doesn't mess up the original files).--[[User:FirePaladin2|FirePaladin2]] ([[User talk:FirePaladin2|talk]]) 18:15, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

I meant specifically that atrocity in [[Behemoth and Ancient Behemoth]] page. The big table of over 9000 cases of "attack X, target defense Y, real target defense Y/5, damage Z" could be just hidden in big fat spoiler button if it's possible. Two big tables just for numbers crunching, taking about as much space as the rest of the page put together.

It's not some top priority, just looks bit meh to have 2 tables full of math cases when it's not really necessary. Maybe wait for me to get bored enough to dig into formatting. Seeing as I've gone from "write something in talk page" to "logging in and writing stuff", might end up in something useful, unless this site doesn't allow collapsing/expanding content.

And someone removed "Shadow of Death" from that part in [[Giant and Titan]] trivia where I put it to clarify that I'm not sure how well Haspids do vs Ancient Behemoths, as Haspids are from Cove and any other 7th level either is a Titan, is Arch Devil and kites excessively relying on ground obstacles for protection, or loses. I take it as your edit? Were the monsters hurt very much in making of that claim or was it quick one-sided cleaning op? And does it mean that Haspids lost? --[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 20:03, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I removed the SoD part, since the info is correct for all HoMM3 versions (I actually explained this in the edit's info section). Haspids still can't reliably defeat Ancient Behemoths.--[[User:FirePaladin2|FirePaladin2]] ([[User talk:FirePaladin2|talk]]) 22:31, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

To make this clear once and for all: I meant that '''ALL''' 7th level town units '''pre-HotA''' lose against Ancient Behemoths, unless they are Titans or Devils protected by terrain obstacles. Then Haspids were introduced and I wasn't sure if it's still correct, because their Revenge ability buffs their attack to ridiculous levels as they keep taking damage and if Poison procs instantly that's 30% of stack's total HP that just went on vacation. So I put SoD there to make sure it's clear which town troops I meant. If Behemoths can reliably kill Haspids, then it's OK, as it's still correct. --[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 13:10, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I think I might revert that change though.... I didn't remember Haspids to deal such insane damage.--[[User:FirePaladin2|FirePaladin2]] ([[User talk:FirePaladin2|talk]]) 15:31, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

The Revenge formula in Haspid's page looks complicated but really isn't, just tedious. Basically they get increased Attack as they lose numbers. So 1v1 there will be no difference because when 1 Haspid is dead, there is no more of them, but in 2v2 when 1 Haspid dies (half of the starting number) the remaining Haspid gets sqrt ((2x 300 + 300 / 1x 300 + 300) - 1) x 100% = sqrt ((900 / 600) - 1) x 100% = sqrt 0,5 x 100% = 0,7 x 100% = +70% Attack. So 49 because the game rounds 49,503 down. 30 points of Attack more than Behemoths' Defense so 30x5=150% damage bonus. 75-137,5, average damage 106,25. Behemoths deal 52-87 to Haspids, average 69,5 as their Defense is 20/5 = 4. Something's not quite right, eh?

Now let's crunch 1000 because I'm lazy and like easy numbers. 500 Haspids die. According to formula they get sqrt ((1001 x 300 / 501 x 300) - 1) x 100%, so let's say sqrt(2-1) x 100%, so 1x 100%... +100% Attack. So '''58 Attack''' vs 19 Defense, '''39 points of Attack over Defense''', and this means '''+195%''' damage bonus. This is pretty much '''TRIPLE their normal damage''' that wouldn't be low anyway as Behemoths are squishy. '''90-165, average 127,5'''. Remember that Behemoths' damage to Haspids is 52-87, avg 69,5. The horror... The horror! 

Now keep in mind that if Poison procs, the whole stack is losing 10% health per turn at once so Behemoths die even faster. Unless I screwed the math up badly, man, the Haspids ARE broken as hell. Granted, this was kinda extreme case, but the Revenge formula means the rape train has no brakes, the more numerous they are, the harder it is to exterminate them because they get stronger as they take losses so decimated stack can still hit almost as hard as full stack. Looks like we got Behemoths v2.0, minus crappy ground speed, with actually decent Attack. Good thing they cannot fly. Because of that formula, it seems that nothing can stand up to them in big numbers unless it's faster than 12 and has no retal. So Arch Devils to the rescue as I don't think unbuffed Titans can compete with THAT levels of attack... --[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 17:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
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-== Wall of text ==
+== Discussion ==
 Giants are very unimpressive 7th level creatures, and may not be worth the gold until your Cloud Temple sees an upgrade. Titans, on the other hand, stand strong as one of the most powerful creatures in the game. If your hero happens to be an expert in [[earth magic]] with [[slow]] you will be able to dismantle a majority of neutral creatures (with the help of [[mages]])) before they can land a blow. Additionally - with their mind spell immunity, Titans will not fall prey to the [[forgetfulness]] and [[berserk]] spell. Even in melee combat, your titans should lead you to victory in a wide range of combat match-ups. Also, a hero with [[Archery]] as a skill would be good too.
@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 Now keep in mind that if Poison procs, the whole stack is losing 10% health per turn at once so Behemoths die even faster. Unless I screwed the math up badly, man, the Haspids ARE broken as hell. Granted, this was kinda extreme case, but the Revenge formula means the rape train has no brakes, the more numerous they are, the harder it is to exterminate them because they get stronger as they take losses so decimated stack can still hit almost as hard as full stack. Looks like we got Behemoths v2.0, minus crappy ground speed, with actually decent Attack. Good thing they cannot fly. Because of that formula, it seems that nothing can stand up to them in big numbers unless it's faster than 12 and has no retal. So Arch Devils to the rescue as I don't think unbuffed Titans can compete with THAT levels of attack... --[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 17:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
-== And what if.... ==
-...you have BOTH Black Dragons and Titans, and a smart opponent forced Black Dragons to retaliate and damage their own Titans by breath attack? Will hatred work on allied Titans?--[[User:Dread Knight|Dread Knight]] ([[User talk:Dread Knight|talk]]) 09:00, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
-:It will work, regardless of how and whose Titans they are attacking.--[[User:Mortarial|Mortarial]] ([[User talk:Mortarial|talk]]) 10:40, 4 July 2021 (UTC)