Editing Talk:Imbalance
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== To all those who think Necropolis is | == To all those who think Necropolis is imbalance... == | ||
'''Disclaimer:''' I am not positioning myself a Heroes 3 expert. I don't play at tournaments nor stream my games, and there are some maps and campaigns which I find impossible. I play just for fun, supposing there are some things in Heroes 3 too hard for me to understand. | '''Disclaimer:''' I am not positioning myself a Heroes 3 expert. I don't play at tournaments nor stream my games, and there are some maps and campaigns which I find impossible. I play just for fun, supposing there are some things in Heroes 3 too hard for me to understand. | ||
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:::Man, Necropolis is banned for a reason. No other town GAINS troops from battles as it does. No other town can convert other type creatures to its own. No other town can amass thousands of 1st levels THIS fast that ALSO don't suck and in fact can take & dish out crazy amount of damage. The only reason Skeleton legions aren't ''completely'' impossible to deal with is their meh base stats. But wait, this is where magic comes in! Cast [[Haste]], enjoy Skeletons running amok like Champions. Or [[Prayer]] because for some reason undead cannot benefit from [[Bless]] but Prayer is A-OK. (Btw, 1-3 damage spread with 6 HP. Bless. Unit hitting for HALF of its health, very numerous, cheap, and gained after victorious battles - see the problem? Like [[Master Gremlin]]s but actually worth something in melee) Necropolis has good early game because Skeletons, very good mid game because Skeletons + [[Vampire Lord]]s, and very good to broken late game because Skeletons + Vampire Lords + [[Dread Knight]]s + magic support. Yeah, the other half of the army sucks (maybe except [[Lich]]es, as long as nothing looks at them funny), but this is the price you pay for playing Necropolis. If it didn't, the town would be completely broken, being good at everything AND having unique advantages that no other town can match. Also the whole "no ranged until level 5" thing ceases to be a problem when you realize that the opponent simply cannot kill all of your Skeletons before they get into melee. There's just too many of them. Sure you will take some casualties getting in melee, but it's a 50% damage from distance>10, and then it's legion of Skeletons vs significantly lower number of soon-to-be Skeletons. Well, unless you're fighting Tower army, which can outshoot, outfight and outmagic Necropolis unless it's heavily outmatched. Anyway, Necropolis IS imbalanced, pretty much only way to get rid of it is even stronger early rush because later you will be drowned in tons of Skeletons and might not have army or magic to deal with that -[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 20:31, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | :::Man, Necropolis is banned for a reason. No other town GAINS troops from battles as it does. No other town can convert other type creatures to its own. No other town can amass thousands of 1st levels THIS fast that ALSO don't suck and in fact can take & dish out crazy amount of damage. The only reason Skeleton legions aren't ''completely'' impossible to deal with is their meh base stats. But wait, this is where magic comes in! Cast [[Haste]], enjoy Skeletons running amok like Champions. Or [[Prayer]] because for some reason undead cannot benefit from [[Bless]] but Prayer is A-OK. (Btw, 1-3 damage spread with 6 HP. Bless. Unit hitting for HALF of its health, very numerous, cheap, and gained after victorious battles - see the problem? Like [[Master Gremlin]]s but actually worth something in melee) Necropolis has good early game because Skeletons, very good mid game because Skeletons + [[Vampire Lord]]s, and very good to broken late game because Skeletons + Vampire Lords + [[Dread Knight]]s + magic support. Yeah, the other half of the army sucks (maybe except [[Lich]]es, as long as nothing looks at them funny), but this is the price you pay for playing Necropolis. If it didn't, the town would be completely broken, being good at everything AND having unique advantages that no other town can match. Also the whole "no ranged until level 5" thing ceases to be a problem when you realize that the opponent simply cannot kill all of your Skeletons before they get into melee. There's just too many of them. Sure you will take some casualties getting in melee, but it's a 50% damage from distance>10, and then it's legion of Skeletons vs significantly lower number of soon-to-be Skeletons. Well, unless you're fighting Tower army, which can outshoot, outfight and outmagic Necropolis unless it's heavily outmatched. Anyway, Necropolis IS imbalanced, pretty much only way to get rid of it is even stronger early rush because later you will be drowned in tons of Skeletons and might not have army or magic to deal with that -[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 20:31, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
::::Fair thing. What I love when fighting Necropolis, is get Solmyr. His CL specialty makes the damage times greater at level 20 when cast on level 1 creatures, so you're gonna deal at least double damage if you target skelestonks. Although you know, one rarely gets Solmyr, unless they play with Tower.--[[User:FirePaladin2|FirePaladin2]] ([[User talk:FirePaladin2|talk]]) 20:40, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ::::Fair thing. What I love when fighting Necropolis, is get Solmyr. His CL specialty makes the damage times greater at level 20 when cast on level 1 creatures, so you're gonna deal at least double damage if you target skelestonks. Although you know, one rarely gets Solmyr, unless they play with Tower.--[[User:FirePaladin2|FirePaladin2]] ([[User talk:FirePaladin2|talk]]) 20:40, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
:::::Some cities with moderate top tier creatures have better early game than Necropolis, whose 1-4 level creatures are neither strong nor fast (with the exception of Vampire Lords, but they take some resources), and saving money on Walking Dead is dangerous as sometimes no other one may guard the town. For example, Rampart's 1-4 lvls are way faster besides Dwarves which are great town guards, and the only con is weakness and fragileness of Pegasi (however, when upgraded they have excellent speed, easily crush wandering monsters and are useful when sieging towns). Inferno has Cerberi who are among the best thirds, and Fortress has Dragon flies who fly like rockets and Basilisks who are very reliable (personally I think that of the non-upgraded fourths, Basilisks are among the best together with Magi - then come Crusaders and Vampire Lords, but their basic versions are not the ones who rock). On the other hand, let's return to Rampart, and we'll see that Dendroids are useless on adventure map for obvious reasons, Unicorn is an exemplary intermediate unit - neither weak nor strong, neither slow nor fast, and Gold Dragon is for me one of three bottom 7th levels, alongside slow Hydra and faint Ghost Dragon. It is a flawed version of a Black Dragon, with the exception that Resurrection still can't be casted on it, while Implosion can. Take them out from a battle (and they have 250 HP not 300) - that's all, they will never return and no one in Rampart is even close. Finally they are unfairly expensive - Ancient Behemoth is cheaper, and how | :::::Some cities with moderate top tier creatures have better early game than Necropolis, whose 1-4 level creatures are neither strong nor fast (with the exception of Vampire Lords, but they take some resources), and saving money on Walking Dead is dangerous as sometimes no other one may guard the town. For example, Rampart's 1-4 lvls are way faster besides Dwarves which are great town guards, and the only con is weakness and fragileness of Pegasi (however, when upgraded they have excellent speed, easily crush wandering monsters and are useful when sieging towns). Inferno has Cerberi who are among the best thirds, and Fortress has Dragon flies who fly like rockets and Basilisks who are very reliable (personally I think that of the non-upgraded fourths, Basilisks are among the best together with Magi - then come Crusaders and Vampire Lords, but their basic versions are not the ones who rock). On the other hand, let's return to Rampart, and we'll see that Dendroids are useless on adventure map for obvious reasons, Unicorn is an exemplary intermediate unit - neither weak nor strong, neither slow nor fast, and Gold Dragon is for me one of three bottom 7th levels, alongside slow Hydra and faint Ghost Dragon. It is a flawed version of a Black Dragon, with the exception that Resurrection still can't be casted on it, while Implosion can. Take them out from a battle (and they have 250 HP not 300) - that's all, they will never return and no one in Rampart is even close. Finally they are unfairly expensive - Ancient Behemoth is cheaper, and how fast it is the MVP and how rarely a Gold Dragon is.--[[User:Dread Knight|Dread Knight]] ([[User talk:Dread Knight|talk]]) 23:13, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
::::::Yeah, Solmyr+Master Gremlins rush is one of the final solutions to the Necropolis problem, as Skeletons are extremely vulnerable to direct damage spells, CL is very strong and can even remove sacrificial stacks in addition to main target, and with Master Gremlin gunline you won't worry too much about collateral damage. Solmyr does get old fast though, in the longer games it's usually better to get Neela or try to get Orrin for a well-scaling specialty. However I meant that in general Tower troops just outclass Necropolis troops, especially on higher levels. Titans crush Ghost Dragons with their higher damage output even with their HP halved from turn 1, and Naga Queens are the only level 6 able to consistently kill Dread Knights (and everything else that Necropolis has to offer) thanks to no retaliation & high damage. Golems & Gargoyles are immune to pretty much everything undeads can do. Master Genies are as fragile as Liches but are faster, deal higher damage & have always useful specialty. Magi can be shielded by unliving so Vampire Lords cannot heal while they're being decimated from distance. Apart from Dread Knights & Skeletons in really high numbers Necropolis has nothing that in late game can match Naga Queens and Titans in raw power, and in early game Master Gremlins beat Skeletons, so Tower is quite good counter for Necropolis if you're not banning it outright -[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 21:51, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ::::::Yeah, Solmyr+Master Gremlins rush is one of the final solutions to the Necropolis problem, as Skeletons are extremely vulnerable to direct damage spells, CL is very strong and can even remove sacrificial stacks in addition to main target, and with Master Gremlin gunline you won't worry too much about collateral damage. Solmyr does get old fast though, in the longer games it's usually better to get Neela or try to get Orrin for a well-scaling specialty. However I meant that in general Tower troops just outclass Necropolis troops, especially on higher levels. Titans crush Ghost Dragons with their higher damage output even with their HP halved from turn 1, and Naga Queens are the only level 6 able to consistently kill Dread Knights (and everything else that Necropolis has to offer) thanks to no retaliation & high damage. Golems & Gargoyles are immune to pretty much everything undeads can do. Master Genies are as fragile as Liches but are faster, deal higher damage & have always useful specialty. Magi can be shielded by unliving so Vampire Lords cannot heal while they're being decimated from distance. Apart from Dread Knights & Skeletons in really high numbers Necropolis has nothing that in late game can match Naga Queens and Titans in raw power, and in early game Master Gremlins beat Skeletons, so Tower is quite good counter for Necropolis if you're not banning it outright -[[User:Fafner|Fafner]] ([[User talk:Fafner|talk]]) 21:51, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
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Phoenixes are very fast, but at the same time they are very fragile, and someone like Archangel or Ancient Behemoth will tear them into pieces. Possibly, the only thing in Conflux which is anyway at the very top of its level (besides Storm Elementals - in fact, 2-3-4-5 levels are quite close in Conflux, as originally Elementals were meant to be neutral creatures) are Sprites - they are fast flyers with no retaliation, and possibly the only 1st level thing you should be afraid of. However, 3 HPs is extremely low - any decent damage will kill lots of Sprites, and prior to their upgrade they can do nothing, being just the worst in the game (of course, besides ill-fated Peasants). | Phoenixes are very fast, but at the same time they are very fragile, and someone like Archangel or Ancient Behemoth will tear them into pieces. Possibly, the only thing in Conflux which is anyway at the very top of its level (besides Storm Elementals - in fact, 2-3-4-5 levels are quite close in Conflux, as originally Elementals were meant to be neutral creatures) are Sprites - they are fast flyers with no retaliation, and possibly the only 1st level thing you should be afraid of. However, 3 HPs is extremely low - any decent damage will kill lots of Sprites, and prior to their upgrade they can do nothing, being just the worst in the game (of course, besides ill-fated Peasants). | ||
Myself I consider Dungeon the toughest town in the game. Besides Troglodytes which you possibly will never hire, it provides great warriors. Harpies are imba as they attack without retaliation and return, both shooters are rather strong, Minotaurs strike greatly having an excellent speed when upgraded, and Black Dragons are possibly second best in the game, after Archangels. Even Scorpicores aren't useless, being excellent for rushing through the map, and decent when sieging towns. Armageddon, 5th level Mage Guild, Mana Vortex - whatever you need for a win, you'll find there, and for small maps, Battle Scholar Academy is very helpful as it will easily turn your hero one level up | Myself I consider Dungeon the toughest town in the game. Besides Troglodytes which you possibly will never hire, it provides great warriors. Harpies are imba as they attack without retaliation and return, both shooters are rather strong, Minotaurs strike greatly having an excellent speed when upgraded, and Black Dragons are possibly second best in the game, after Archangels. Even Scorpicores aren't useless, being excellent for rushing through the map, and decent when sieging towns. Armageddon, 5th level Mage Guild, Mana Vortex - whatever you need for a win, you'll find there, and for small maps, Battle Scholar Academy is very helpful as it will easily turn your hero one level up.--[[User:Dread Knight|Dread Knight]] ([[User talk:Dread Knight|talk]]) 23:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC) | ||