Editing Talk:Secondary skill

Jump to navigation Jump to search
Warning: You are not logged in. Your IP address will be publicly visible if you make any edits. If you log in or create an account, your edits will be attributed to your username, along with other benefits.

The edit can be undone. Please check the comparison below to verify that this is what you want to do, and then publish the changes below to finish undoing the edit.

Latest revision Your text
Line 2: Line 2:
Although in the original {{roe}} there was an [[adventure map]] location called [[market of time]], which supposedly was intended to allow hero to "forget" secondary skills.
Although in the original {{roe}} there was an [[adventure map]] location called [[market of time]], which supposedly was intended to allow hero to "forget" secondary skills.


== Bad Hero & No Artifacts (TheKnownWorld/MeKick) ==
== Bad Hero & No Artifacts ==
[[Talk:Secondary_skill/Bad_Hero_No_Artifacts|Bad Hero & No Artifacts]]
{| cellpadding=5 cellspacing=0 width=200px style="background-color:#{{green 4}}; text-align:left; border:1px solid; float:left; margin-right:20px;"
! MeKick's ranking
|-
|- style="background-color:#{{Green 2}};"
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Navigation.png|22px|link=]] 1: Navigation
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert First Aid.png|22px|link=]] 2: First Aid
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Eagle Eye.png|22px|link=]] 3: Eagle Eye
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Learning.png|22px|link=]] 4: Learning
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Scholar.png|22px|link=]] 5: Scholar
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Estates.png|22px|link=]] 6: Estates
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Mysticism.png|22px|link=]] 7: Mysticism
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Artillery.png|22px|link=]] 8: Artillery
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Scouting.png|22px|link=]] 9: Scouting
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Pathfinding.png|22px|link=]] 10: Pathfinding
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Diplomacy.png|22px|link=]] 11: Diplomacy
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Sorcery.png|22px|link=]] 12: Sorcery
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Resistance.png|22px|link=]] 13: Resistance
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Ballistics.png|22px|link=]] 14: Ballistics
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Archery.png|22px|link=]] 15: Archery
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Luck.png|22px|link=]] 16: Luck
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Leadership.png|22px|link=]] 17: Leadership
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Intelligence.png|22px|link=]] 18: Intelligence
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Water Magic.png|22px|link=]] 19: Water Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Fire Magic.png|22px|link=]] 20: Fire Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Earth Magic.png|22px|link=]] 21: Earth Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Air Magic.png|22px|link=]] 22: Air Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Tactics.png|22px|link=]] 23: Tactics
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Armorer.png|22px|link=]] 24: Armorer
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Offense.png|22px|link=]] 25: Offense
|-
|- style="background-color:#{{Green 2}};"
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Wisdom.png|22px|link=]] 26: Wisdom
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Necromancy.png|22px|link=]] 27: Necromancy
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Logistics.png|22px|link=]] 28: Logistics
|}


== static numeration ==
The Heroes 3 Streamer/Youtuber MeKick (also known as TheKnownWorld) for his singleplayer challenge of "Bad Hero & No Artifacts" played with the following self-imposed rules for himself:
Is it just me or is the formatting terribly off for the static numeration? - juq
 
:Probably depends on your skin. Do you know which one you are using? Posting a screenshot would also help us figure it out. [https://snipboard.io snipboard.io] is pretty easy to use. [[user:imahero|ima]] 21:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
* Equipping artifacts is not allowed.
::hxxps://i.snipboard.io/H5R8bo.jpg. Because the width of the chart is shortened many of the secondary skills are taking up 2 lines, thus we have this. - juq
* Player heroes can not go to map objects that improve their abilities ([[Learning Stone]], [[School of Magic]], [[University]], etc).
:::Mine doesn't seem to have that problem: [https://i.snipboard.io/6Cx4hu.jpg i.snipboard.io/6Cx4hu.jpg] Which internet browser are you using? [[user:imahero|ima]] 00:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
* Upon every level up, pick the pre-determined "worse" option of the skills offered.
::::How does the page look here: [https://web.archive.org/web/20210323001338/https://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Secondary_skill web.archive.org/Secondary_skill]? [[user:imahero|ima]] 00:19, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
* No joining monsters.
:::::I use Yandex Browser, based on Chromium. - Juq
 
The settings were as follows:


* Shadow of Death
* Random map template 8XM12a, Size XL+U
* 8 human/computer player FFA
* No water, Stone or Cobblestone Roads, and Strong Monsters
* Impossible difficulty
* Player starting town/hero/bonus: Fortress/[[Voy]]/Gold
* All computer starting towns/heroes/bonuses: random


==...==
As such, the predetermined list MeKick made for the following situation is on the left.


  Q: Were you aware of earth magic or logistics supremacy, or how useless eagle eye or learning are?
The ranking of these skills are up to debate and some of the positions are highly situational. [[Scouting]] and [[Scholar]] are extremely situational; on a main hero they can be considered wasted slots like [[Eagle Eye]] or [[First Aid]] as both are centered around helping other heroes rather than being a bonus for the hero that has them, but on expendable scout or transport secondary heroes they are considered some of the best skills to have. [[Navigation]] and [[Water Magic]] both greatly increase on value with maps with considerable waterways; the School of Water Magic has 3 adventure spells that only work on water. [[Pathfinding]] is a more valuable on maps without roads or with few roads that have adverse terrain, though it can be completely replaced by [[Wayfarer's Boots]] in [[Horn of the Abyss]].
  A: Keep in mind, at the time, HoMM3 was considered, first and foremost, a single player game.  If a skill or spell proved to be overpowered, it wasn’t a big concern, because the overwhelming number of games were human versus ai.  If we had known, twenty years later, HoMM3 would be a competitive multiplayer game, we would have given ‘balance’ extra attention.
  This being said, at the time, we did not know Earth Magic or Logistics would be considered overpowered.
  Learning could have used a buff, but we were worried about it becoming a ‘required skill’, so we errored on the side of ‘underpowered’.
  Eagle Eye was a hold over from HoMM2, and within NWC it wasn’t considered ‘useless’.  Regardless, in hindsight, it could have been cut.


  Q: Were there dedicated testers and balance designers in the dev team of Heroes III?
[[First Aid]] is put in 2nd place as MeKick can not use artifacts including war machines; another completely useless skill, while [[Artillery]] is also put lower than it normally would be as the ballista can not be used, but it can still give control over arrow towers in a siege.  
  A: Short answer... no.  Please keep in mind, at the time, network play was a relatively new thing, and the thought of competitive HoMM3 was inconceivable.  Also, dedicated balance designers and testers didn’t really become a thing until Starcraft became an esport in South Korea.  Today, it is standard practice for any pure multiplayer game.


Greg Fulton, the lead designer of HoMM3 (RoE and AB)
[[Diplomacy]] is put in 11th, as its main use, attracting monsters to your army, is forbidden by his own rule; and he can't visit a Library of Enlightenment at all. Its only use becomes lowering the surrender cost.


Behemoth Cave [http://h3.heroes.net.pl/nowina/3765] Interview (2020.11.20)
The changes [[Horn of the Abyss]]  brings further possible changes to the ranking. [[Estates]], [[Mysticism]], [[Scouting]] have all been buffed, while [[Diplomacy]], [[Intelligence]], and [[Earth Magic]] have been weakened.


[https://www.fanstratics.com/fstnewsletter10 Fanstratics Newsletter #10 (June 2021)]
== static numeration ==
Is it just me or is the formatting terribly off for the static numeration? - juq
:Probably depends on your skin. Do you know which one you are using? Posting a screenshot would also help us figure it out. [https://snipboard.io snipboard.io] is pretty easy to use. [[user:imahero|ima]] 21:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Please note that all contributions to Heroes 3 wiki may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then do not submit it here.
You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource. Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!
Cancel Editing help (opens in new window)

Template used on this page:

Retrieved from "https://heroes.thelazy.net//index.php/Talk:Secondary_skill"