Talk:Secondary skill: Difference between revisions

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Although in the original {{roe}} there was an [[adventure map]] location called [[market of time]], which supposedly was intended to allow hero to "forget" secondary skills.
Although in the original {{roe}} there was an [[adventure map]] location called [[market of time]], which supposedly was intended to allow hero to "forget" secondary skills.


== Bad Hero & No Artifacts ==
== Bad Hero & No Artifacts (TheKnownWorld/MeKick) ==
{| cellpadding=5 cellspacing=0 width=200px style="background-color:#{{green 4}}; text-align:left; border:1px solid; float:left; margin-right:20px;"
[[Talk:Secondary_skill/Bad_Hero_No_Artifacts|Bad Hero & No Artifacts]]
! MeKick's ranking
|-
|- style="background-color:#{{Green 2}};"
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Navigation.png|22px|link=]] 1: Navigation
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert First Aid.png|22px|link=]] 2: First Aid
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Eagle Eye.png|22px|link=]] 3: Eagle Eye
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Learning.png|22px|link=]] 4: Learning
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Scholar.png|22px|link=]] 5: Scholar
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Estates.png|22px|link=]] 6: Estates
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Mysticism.png|22px|link=]] 7: Mysticism
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Artillery.png|22px|link=]] 8: Artillery
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Scouting.png|22px|link=]] 9: Scouting
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Pathfinding.png|22px|link=]] 10: Pathfinding
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Diplomacy.png|22px|link=]] 11: Diplomacy
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Sorcery.png|22px|link=]] 12: Sorcery
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Resistance.png|22px|link=]] 13: Resistance
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Ballistics.png|22px|link=]] 14: Ballistics
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Archery.png|22px|link=]] 15: Archery
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Luck.png|22px|link=]] 16: Luck
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Leadership.png|22px|link=]] 17: Leadership
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Intelligence.png|22px|link=]] 18: Intelligence
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Water Magic.png|22px|link=]] 19: Water Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Fire Magic.png|22px|link=]] 20: Fire Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Earth Magic.png|22px|link=]] 21: Earth Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Air Magic.png|22px|link=]] 22: Air Magic
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Tactics.png|22px|link=]] 23: Tactics
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Armorer.png|22px|link=]] 24: Armorer
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Offense.png|22px|link=]] 25: Offense
|-
|- style="background-color:#{{Green 2}};"
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Wisdom.png|22px|link=]] 26: Wisdom
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Necromancy.png|22px|link=]] 27: Necromancy
|-
| height=25px | [[File: Expert Logistics.png|22px|link=]] 28: Logistics
|}


The Heroes 3 Streamer/Youtuber MeKick (also known as TheKnownWorld) for his singleplayer challenge of "Bad Hero & No Artifacts" played with the following self-imposed rules for himself:
== static numeration ==
Is it just me or is the formatting terribly off for the static numeration? - juq
:Probably depends on your skin. Do you know which one you are using? Posting a screenshot would also help us figure it out. [https://snipboard.io snipboard.io] is pretty easy to use. [[user:imahero|ima]] 21:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
::hxxps://i.snipboard.io/H5R8bo.jpg. Because the width of the chart is shortened many of the secondary skills are taking up 2 lines, thus we have this. - juq
:::Mine doesn't seem to have that problem: [https://i.snipboard.io/6Cx4hu.jpg i.snipboard.io/6Cx4hu.jpg] Which internet browser are you using? [[user:imahero|ima]] 00:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
::::How does the page look here: [https://web.archive.org/web/20210323001338/https://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Secondary_skill web.archive.org/Secondary_skill]? [[user:imahero|ima]] 00:19, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::I use Yandex Browser, based on Chromium. - Juq
 
 
==...==


* Equipping artifacts is not allowed.
  Q: Were you aware of earth magic or logistics supremacy, or how useless eagle eye or learning are?
* Player heroes can not go to map objects that improve their abilities ([[Learning Stone]], [[School of Magic]], [[University]], etc).
  A: Keep in mind, at the time, HoMM3 was considered, first and foremost, a single player game. If a skill or spell proved to be overpowered, it wasn’t a big concern, because the overwhelming number of games were human versus ai.  If we had known, twenty years later, HoMM3 would be a competitive multiplayer game, we would have given ‘balance’ extra attention.
* Upon every level up, pick the pre-determined "worse" option of the skills offered.
  This being said, at the time, we did not know Earth Magic or Logistics would be considered overpowered.
* No joining monsters.
  Learning could have used a buff, but we were worried about it becoming a ‘required skill’, so we errored on the side of ‘underpowered’.
  Eagle Eye was a hold over from HoMM2, and within NWC it wasn’t considered ‘useless’.  Regardless, in hindsight, it could have been cut.


The settings were as follows:
  Q: Were there dedicated testers and balance designers in the dev team of Heroes III?
  A: Short answer... no.  Please keep in mind, at the time, network play was a relatively new thing, and the thought of competitive HoMM3 was inconceivable.  Also, dedicated balance designers and testers didn’t really become a thing until Starcraft became an esport in South Korea.  Today, it is standard practice for any pure multiplayer game.


* Shadow of Death
Greg Fulton, the lead designer of HoMM3 (RoE and AB)
* Random map template 8XM12a, Size XL+U
* 8 human/computer player FFA
* No water, Stone or Cobblestone Roads, and Strong Monsters
* Impossible difficulty
* Player starting town/hero/bonus: Fortress/[[Voy]]/Gold
* All computer starting towns/heroes/bonuses: random


As such, the predetermined list MeKick made for the following situation is on the left.
Behemoth Cave [http://h3.heroes.net.pl/nowina/3765] Interview (2020.11.20)


The ranking of these skills are up to debate and some of the positions are highly situational. [[Scouting]] and [[Scholar]] are extremely situational; on a main hero they can be considered wasted slots like [[Eagle Eye]] or [[First Aid]] as both are centered around helping other heroes rather than being a bonus for the hero that has them, but on expendable scout or transport secondary heroes they are considered some of the best skills to have. [[Navigation]] and [[Water Magic]] both greatly increase on value with maps with considerable waterways; the School of Water Magic has 3 adventure spells that only work on water. [[Pathfinding]] is a more valuable on maps without roads or with few roads that have adverse terrain, though it can be completely replaced by [[Wayfarer's Boots]] in [[Horn of the Abyss]].
[https://www.fanstratics.com/fstnewsletter10 Fanstratics Newsletter #10 (June 2021)]


[[First Aid]] is put in 2nd place as MeKick can not use artifacts including war machines; another completely useless skill, while [[Artillery]] is also put lower than it normally would be as the ballista can not be used, but it can still give control over arrow towers in a siege.
== Skills are divided into 3 types ==


[[Diplomacy]] is put in 11th, as its main use, attracting monsters to your army, is forbidden by his own rule; and he can't visit a Library of Enlightenment at all. Its only use becomes lowering the surrender cost.
Are they? This seems like an arbitrary choice made by the writer than a feature existing in the game. - Csaros


The changes [[Horn of the Abyss]]  brings further possible changes to the ranking. [[Estates]], [[Mysticism]], [[Scouting]] have all been buffed, while [[Diplomacy]], [[Intelligence]], and [[Earth Magic]] have been weakened.
- Not much in the manual, as I have checked. I have added that they can be divided, as the author does.


== static numeration ==
== Secondary skill weights ==


Is it just me or is the formatting terribly off for the static numeration? - juq
Wasn't the table of all hero classes for all skill chances here? Where did it go?

Latest revision as of 15:40, 30 October 2024

need source[edit | hide | hide all]

Although in the original Restoration of Erathia there was an adventure map location called market of time, which supposedly was intended to allow hero to "forget" secondary skills.

Bad Hero & No Artifacts (TheKnownWorld/MeKick)[edit | hide]

Bad Hero & No Artifacts

static numeration[edit | hide]

Is it just me or is the formatting terribly off for the static numeration? - juq

Probably depends on your skin. Do you know which one you are using? Posting a screenshot would also help us figure it out. snipboard.io is pretty easy to use. ima 21:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
hxxps://i.snipboard.io/H5R8bo.jpg. Because the width of the chart is shortened many of the secondary skills are taking up 2 lines, thus we have this. - juq
Mine doesn't seem to have that problem: i.snipboard.io/6Cx4hu.jpg Which internet browser are you using? ima 00:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
How does the page look here: web.archive.org/Secondary_skill? ima 00:19, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
I use Yandex Browser, based on Chromium. - Juq


...[edit | hide]

 Q: Were you aware of earth magic or logistics supremacy, or how useless eagle eye or learning are?
 A: Keep in mind, at the time, HoMM3 was considered, first and foremost, a single player game.  If a skill or spell proved to be overpowered, it wasn’t a big concern, because the overwhelming number of games were human versus ai.  If we had known, twenty years later, HoMM3 would be a competitive multiplayer game, we would have given ‘balance’ extra attention.
 This being said, at the time, we did not know Earth Magic or Logistics would be considered overpowered.
 Learning could have used a buff, but we were worried about it becoming a ‘required skill’, so we errored on the side of ‘underpowered’.
 Eagle Eye was a hold over from HoMM2, and within NWC it wasn’t considered ‘useless’.  Regardless, in hindsight, it could have been cut.

 Q: Were there dedicated testers and balance designers in the dev team of Heroes III?
 A: Short answer... no.  Please keep in mind, at the time, network play was a relatively new thing, and the thought of competitive HoMM3 was inconceivable.  Also, dedicated balance designers and testers didn’t really become a thing until Starcraft became an esport in South Korea.  Today, it is standard practice for any pure multiplayer game.

Greg Fulton, the lead designer of HoMM3 (RoE and AB)

Behemoth Cave [1] Interview (2020.11.20)

Fanstratics Newsletter #10 (June 2021)

Skills are divided into 3 types[edit | hide]

Are they? This seems like an arbitrary choice made by the writer than a feature existing in the game. - Csaros

- Not much in the manual, as I have checked. I have added that they can be divided, as the author does.

Secondary skill weights[edit | hide]

Wasn't the table of all hero classes for all skill chances here? Where did it go?

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